NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/misc-part1/8456

Text File | 1996-08-05 | 11.8 KB | 243 lines

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Path: news.sprintlink.net!eskimo!drizzit
From: [e-mail] (G. Baldwin)
Subject: Re: New Press Release!
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Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:29:18 GMT

Jason Compton ([e-mail]) wrote:
: Jeff Grimmett ([e-mail]) wrote:
: : [e-mail] (Jason Compton) wrote:

: : >: any factual information to back up either side of the statement.  I won't
: : >: say they're common without something to prove it, but I don't think you
: : >: have anything that really shows concrete proof that they're hard to get
: : >: in quantity, either.  Appologies if you do, I'd love to see it.
: : >
: : >I base my conclusion that Amiga Tech had to special-order the 020s used
: : >in their Amiga 1200s.  Perhaps there's a stockpile of useless external
: : >MMUs somewhere for a discontinued processor, but I doubt it.

: : .. and if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.  It's guesswork,
: : then, which is fine, just be sure to say so next time.

: This argument has become silly.  I think it's painfully clear that the
: 020 and its accessories have been long forgotten by Motorola.  However,
: if you demand signed documentation from Motorola executives on this
: point, I'm sorry, it's not worth the time to get it.

Not so.  68EC020s are still used for "lesser" tasks such as hard drives
and washing machines, although this is becoming less true each month since
RISC chips made by companies (such as Motorola) can do the same job better
for less money.

: : >Without marketing, this ultra-low-end does not exist.  If AT is
: : >unwilling to try to recreate this market, it will be a waste of time.

: : How exactly is this relevant?  If they recreate the market, but have
: : nothing to sell to it, they're S.O.L.

: Because they have done nothing to recreate it, other than tossing out
: this prototype idea!  If it's planned for launch in 6 months, it's time
: to gear up the PR machine.  And that's not happening.

Promoting an 030 based system is a joke.  It would only hurt its PR, not
help it.

Escom probably would want to pass even promoting an 040 based system and
save the money for R&D and promotion costs of a PPC machine.  After all,
even with promotion, WHO would want to buy an 040 based machine other
than other Amiga users?  040 based Macs are being promoted like and SOB,
and they only cost $800 for a complete system.


: : >: I think the EC030 is just FINE for the ---> BASE <--- machine.  It has a
: : >: frinkin' CPU slot, have you forgotten how we did things back in 1990,
: : >: with the A2000?  Drop in a different CPU card, and boom, a new model.

: : >And have you forgotten how much those A2000 CPU cards COST?

: : Read my lips: "You want high end, you pay high-end prices."  So the cost
: : of an accelerator board adds to the cost of the machine.  GEE, thanks for
: : telling me that, I had thought they were FREE!

: Yes, it adds to the cost of the machine, at a rate far greater than the
: price/performance ratio in the rest of the industry.

The idea of having "high end systems just for people with lost of cash"
is a dumb idea.  The idea is somehow forgotten on the PC market, where
you can get fairly high end systems (P100-P133 right now) for reasonable
prices for the masses.

Keeping high end systems out of reach for many people is why the Amiga
has its current problems.  Yes, there are 060 cards out, but they just
cost too much.


I had an idea today.  Why not let people have a greater role in buying
what system THEY want.  Commodore always had the idea of "here, take it
or leave it".  That idea sure didn't help it out.  Let dealers have more
freedom in making systems better suited for their customers.

Here is a little chart that shows prices of CPUs (in bulks of 1 as of Jan96)
taken from Motorola's own WWW site:                  ^^^^^^^^^^


  68EC030/40                   $66  INT
  68030/50                    $177  INT + MMU

  68LC040/25                  $145  INT + MMU
  68LC040/33                  $164  INT + MMU

  68RC040/25                  $207  INT + MMU + FPU
  68RC040/33                  $244  INT + MMU + FPU
  68RC040/40                  $379  INT + MMU + FPU


Price to Performance wise, the LC040/33 would be the best choice.  It
would boost the price up by about $100 - $150 (remember that these are *NOT*
prices for these chips in bulk) from that of an 030 and an 030 memory sub-
system.

Why would this be such a good idea as a base system?  Its a *MARKETABLE*
machine.  Hell, even I'd be tempted to pick one up.  Sure, its no Pentium180,
but its a start.  And the number of people who would be willing to buy it
would go up - A500, A600, A1000, A2000, A3000, and even some A1200 owners
would be able to upgrade.  An EC030/40 machine is just less appealing to
people with older systems (some which may already be upgraded to 030s!).

I also think that Escom should get a deal with a PC case maker and get 3
different case styles - desktop, minitower, and tower.  After all, A1200
tower cases seem to be a hot fasion, even at $300.  Imagine how many
people would want towers if they were only $150 instead.  Then just let
the dealers order how many they want from Escom, and then just let them
put the systems together at their dealerships.

So dealers would be able to:

  (1) Chose the 040 CPU that their buyers want.  If they just want it for
  games, word processing, or web surfing, and LC040 will do it.  If they
  dabble in rendering or image processing, let them get the full 040.  Make
  an LC the min (no EC), that way we can build up our base for people with
  MMUs, and some people may actually be able to use Virtual Memory in AmigaOS
  rv 4.x.  Make a CPU slot that is compatable with the A3000/A4000, so if
  they want even MORE power, they can upgrade.

  (2) Chose the case from 3 Escom/Amiga styles.  Desktop, Minitower, or a
  Full Tower.  Some people hate Minitowers... some people don't have the
  $$$ for a full tower.  Again, let the people get what THEY want.

  (3) Let the dealers install the hard drives themselves.  Many dealers
  already do this.  (Commodore's choice of the Seagate 120 really pissed
  many A4000 owners off.  Mine fried in only a year).

  (4) Let the dealers install the memory.  They did this with the A4000 a lot
  and it was really a good idea.  Let 6MB be a general starting figure (1x32
  72-pin SIMMs [4MB] run only $60 now days!).


Many PC dealers do with with their clones already.  Hm... that must be
why its so cheap to get a Tower instead of a desktop case with a clone...


: : Say it, Jason.  Tell me that you think that the peecee is the machine to
: : beat.  Then tell me why you've stuck around with your Amiga for so long.
: : This should be interesting.

: In the computer industry?  You're damn right the PC is the machine to
: beat.  That is the default purchasing choice of any potential computer
: buyer.  They must be convinced that a non-PC purchase is right for them.
: They must have a good reason, and after you tell them that an Amiga is
: several times slower than the low end PC, you may as well stop talking.

Agreed.  Why buy and Amiga if you can't even run PC ports?  After all,
when the A500 was around, over half of the software we ran was basically
a PC/Mac port.  We needs ports to survive.  If that means we can't have
an 030, then so be it.


: : Perhaps this never occurred to you, but the Amiga hasn't played the
: : peecee game for a VERY long time, it's NOT a peecee, it's designed
: : differently.  The PROBLEM is that no one seems to see this.  It's a
: : common lament of the Amiga owner that if it were only more apparent the
: : actual ADVANTAGES of the machine, a lot more people would use it than
: : currently do.  CBM never managed to market it.  No one, including
: : (apparently) several Amiga owners, seems to know about the differences.

: It's too late for Commodore to market it, but unfortunately that was the
: last chance to get the Amiga, as we know it, into homes and businesses by
: the skillions.  Besides, using off-the-shelf parts in development is a
: perfect way to use the (largely unfortunate) market conditions to the
: advantage of the Amiga.

Agreed.  The Amiga lost its niche.  Now we should market it differently.
But first we need a product.  Marketing air is the fastest way to get
yourself into bankrupcy.

: : >It's faster than what I'm using now:  A vintage 1990 Amiga 3000 with an
: : >030/25 (with MMU and FPU, I might add.)  That was high-end.  Taking a
: : >"computer generation" at a VERY conservative 2 years, you mean to tell me
: : >that in 3 generations the Amiga will have a low end with processing power
: : >improved by less than a factor of TWO from the high end of over half a
: : >decade ago?  Sorry, but you'll win no new friends doing that.

: : So, I am to then conclude that you think R&D "just happens" and that
: : computers "evolve" if they exist long enough?  Point out to me, please,
: : where in that two-year timeline there was actually anyone to do any R&D
: : ON the Amiga hardware.

: : Your "three generations" are nonexistant.  The new Amiga prototype is a
: : modification of AGA, nothing more.  The _next_ generation is being worked
: : on.  It will not happen overnight.

: You've missed the point entirely!  While the market has progressed 3 or 4
: generations, we've had one.  But processor and graphic technology has
: progressed right along.  Why restrict the current generation to 1992
: standards?

: Yes, it would be a Herculean task to get that sort of functionality
: nearly overnight.  But I thought we all knew that.  I thought that's what
: the Amiga Tech employees and contract developers knew when they signed on
: to work on it.

Even though the high end Amiga really has nowhere to go (until the OS is
ported), the low end can still go somewhere.  68LC040's are cheap enough
that we can still get fairly usable systems for around $US1000.  That is
progress.  Its a step forward, not just shuffling your feet a bit.

People can bitch about this choice all they want.  Poor college students
(like me) will be hard pressed to come up with $1000, but hey - thats
what USED hardware is for!  I got my A3000/030 used for $375!  But $1000
is not bad for a home system that will last for about 2 years (4-8 if
they use the PowerUP! slot).

Letting dealers put the last bits of the systems together may sound like a
horrible idea for some people (oh, its gonna cost more...  oh, the dealers
won't like it... oh, blah blah blah), but for people who want "a little
more", it won't cost them an extra $300 to go from one chip to another,
or $350 to get a new case.

Choice is GOOD.  People who have a choice at better designing their
systems will always be happyer in the long run.  Power is also GOOD.  Why
should people pay $800 for a system that is already outdated when $925
will get them a system that is USABLE!


: --
: Jason Compton                                  [e-mail]
: Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine         [phone] FAX
: You know you're on the way out...              it's just a matter of time.
: Maybe some escape?                             No!  Not even one!
: AR on Aminet - docs/mags/ar???.lha             AR Mailing list - Mail me
: WWW - http://www.omnipresence.com/Amiga/News/AR, www.cucug.org/ar/ar.html

--
                      Greg Baldwin (drizzit @eskimo.com)
       Amiga junkie and user since 1987  Computer Science & DTV Student
       Commodore64 fan since about 1983  http://www.eskimo.com/~drizzit